Curse

Wasted Days · Jan 07, 2009, 12:43 PM // 12:43

Was messing around with build ideas again, and thought up a 2 man assassin build, this was my initial idea:

[build prof=A/Me box daggermastery=12+1+1 criticalstrikes=11+1 deadlyarts=6+1][palm strike][trampling ox][falling lotus strike][twisting fangs][death blossom][arcane mimicry][resurrection signet][/build]

[build prof=A/Me box daggermastery=12+1+1 criticalstrikes=11+1 deadlyarts=6+1][arcane mimicry][trampling ox][falling lotus strike][twisting fangs][death blossom][assassin's promise][resurrection signet][/build]

use arcane mimicry to copy each other's elites then run through chain. Place AP, and when foe dies recharge skills including arcane mimicry so you can repeat chain.

obvious problem is that there are only 2 skills in that bar that would really need recharging that way. second, no IAS. thirdly, if the copied AP fails then it's a long wait for another, and if AP fails on the copied Palm Stike then that's lost for a while too.

so I was thinking of maybe using that tactic on [temple strike], inflicts blind and daze plus with an attacking bar and AP it will hopefully have a much quicker recharge, especially if both sins attack same target. would a bar based around that idea be worth it?

Vann Borakul · Jan 07, 2009, 02:01 PM // 14:01

AP wouldn't work for both sins if you attack the same target.

Wasted Days · Jan 07, 2009, 02:10 PM // 14:10

you mean if you both cast AP (one normal and one copied version) on the same target, attack and kill, AP won't work? forgive me if i'm being dumb, but why?

Dmitri3 · Jan 07, 2009, 02:21 PM // 14:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vann Borakul

AP wouldn't work for both sins if you attack the same target.

It would.

12 chars

bungusmaximus · Jan 07, 2009, 02:25 PM // 14:25

I wouldn't put twisting fangs on both assassins if you want to spike the same target, the effects will be redundant, energy shouldn't be a problem, and recharge neither so I would ditch assassins promise alltogether. You can chain KD's with the 2 copies of trampling, but since trampling only requires foes to be crippled one copy of Palm Strike should suffice.

Palm strike on one sin and another elite on the other might do well imho, no need to copy the elites with arcane mimicry.

Somewhere I'm missing a poison, maybe add falling spider instead of falling lotus and give assa 2 a cheaper dual attack?

Also, block will screw you over, so wild blow on one of the sins doesn't hurt, signet of malice is also pretty amazing on a palm strike bar imho, the more chance you get to get a clean spike off the better.

Panais · Jan 07, 2009, 02:29 PM // 14:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasted Days

you mean if you both cast AP (one normal and one copied version) on the same target, attack and kill, AP won't work? forgive me if i'm being dumb, but why?

its a hex
when the 2nd sin casts it the first one will be removed so only 1 sin will get the benefits of AP

Dmitri3 · Jan 07, 2009, 02:32 PM // 14:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Panais

its a hex
when the 2nd sin casts it the first one will be removed so only 1 sin will get the benefits of AP

I'm sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about.

bungusmaximus · Jan 07, 2009, 02:35 PM // 14:35

Interesting theory, I'll test it when I get home, but mind you, assassins promise blows monkey balls in PvP. That is, IF you wanna use the build for PvP, I'm not sure about that ofc, but KD chaining sounds very PvP-ish to me.

Dmitri3 · Jan 07, 2009, 02:41 PM // 14:41

It's not a theory, it's a fact.

I'm not talking about build, it's too much trouble for the results it's gonna provide. And bad things happen if the target doesn't die. Functionality of the skill is another story however. Please test it before you say it doesn't work.

Wasted Days · Jan 07, 2009, 03:14 PM // 15:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungusmaximus

and recharge neither so I would ditch assassins promise alltogether

this is why i asked whether a build [temple strike] would be worth it. the whole point of the two sins with AP was to copy each others elite and have AP recharge arcane mimicry (i'm working on the assumption that when it recharges the skills, it will recharge AM not the AP copy). Attackin the same target isn't necessary, just thought you'd get a quicker use out of AP.

possibly something like

[golden fox strike][temple strike][twisting fangs][arcane mimicry][critical eye][resurrection signet]

[golden lotus strike][arcane mimicry][twisting fangs][assassin's promise][critical eye][resurrection signet]

plus some other attack skills/energy management. AP to recharge skills, Temple strike for dazed and blindess, twisting fangs for cover conditions. Would be just as pointless attacking same target with this build

if AP is naf in PvP then this is a PvE build

though spose it could work in AB, lot's of things die in there quickly, esp minions.

could also combine the first one with an AP nuker http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Build:E/..._Promise_Nuker

Dmitri3 · Jan 07, 2009, 03:30 PM // 15:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasted Days

(i'm working on the assumption that when it recharges the skills, it will recharge AM not the AP copy).

That's correct and incorrect at the same time.

While the skill is being copied, the recharge only kicks in when the spell effect ends (Arcane Mimicry, Arcane Echo, Symbols of Inspiration...), so to trigger the recharge you'd have to time it just right: cast AP just a few seconds before Arcane Mimicry effect would end and hope you don't kill the target faster. Else it's just gonna recharge the fake AP and not Arcane Mimicry.

That's why I said it's just too much trouble. Eventually you're gonna screw it up and you're useless for one minute. Or even better, get it interrupted (2 seconds is quite a bit).

Wasted Days · Jan 07, 2009, 03:42 PM // 15:42

ok, fair enough

stanzhao · Jan 07, 2009, 05:15 PM // 17:15

i'm not sure if this is still the case, but a while ago, me and a friend ran an ele bar with the same intentions of stealing each others skills to run the same bar.

i think it was something along the lines of

[skill]Searing flames[/skill][skill]arcane echo[/skill][skill]glowing gaze[/skill][skill]liquid flame[/skill][skill]fire attunement[/skill][skill]arcane mimicry[/skill][skill]glyph of lesser energy[/skill][skill]resurrection signet[/skill]

[skill]arcane mimicry[/skill][skill]arcane echo[/skill][skill]glowing gaze[/skill][skill]liquid flame[/skill][skill]fire attunement[/skill][skill]elemental attunement[/skill][skill]glyph of lesser energy[/skill][skill]resurrection signet[/skill]

ok, now the problem was, that sometimes he would get 2 copies of ele attunement because somehow he would copy the elite skill i copied off of him and same thing happened for me sometimes. i dont know if this has been fixed or there is some way to counter it, but it was a problem we came across anyways.

and... the recharge sucked ass with echo etc, but we were just messing around

Wasted Days · Jan 07, 2009, 05:33 PM // 17:33

whilst on the topic of double sin builds, i was trying to use mimicry with a shadow form build and failed miserably. but was thinking that if 2 SF's teamed up they could run areas a lot faster, assuming they were running it for other players. for example

2 x[build prof=A/Me box shadowarts=12+3+1 Illusionmagic=12 deadlyarts=3+3][shadow form][dwarven stability][dark escape][illusion of haste][return][death's retreat][deadly paradox][/build]

with 20% enchant daggers/staff you should get shadow form to last 25 seconds

1st assassin: Shadow Form>Dwarven Stability>Dark Escape>Illusion of haste (reapplying when necessary) then runs whilst second assassin waits.

after 19 seconds (i.e. when shadow form is about to end on first assassin) second assassin cast SF, DS, Dark Escape and shadow steps to 1st using return. Once the 2nd Assass steps to the 1st, the 1st uses death's retreat to step one of the waiting allies and heal. the 1st uses deadly paradox with DS to recharge SF. When SF is about to run out on 2nd assassin the process is repeated again. Whilst probably more convienent on a single assassin, by doing it this way you can maintain a 50% speed increase (33% from DE, 25% from IoH), only stopping to re-apply IoH, plus there's no down time from shadow form. I'm working on the basis that shadow stepping/teleporting doesn't have a specified ranger (nothing is mentioned on wiki)

The main problem is if the running assassin steps back to early, or dies (which is a problem with any running build), then you have to start over. might be easier to swap out as soon as SF finishes recharging

P A L P H R A M O N D · Jan 07, 2009, 05:50 PM // 17:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitri3

I'm sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about.

He is right, you can't have multiple copies of one hex on the same enemy. Can you have multiple versions of Mark of Pain (for example) from different players stack on an enemy, causing them all to trigger from physical damage dealt? Don't think so.

This is from the Wiki:

"Multiple copies of the same skill will not stack with each other. However, the beneficial effect of Hex spells that provide a bonus to the caster, such as Life Siphon do stack, so 3 copies of life siphon on different monsters will give 3...9 pips of health regeneration. 3 copies of Life Siphon on the same monster will give no more than 3 pips of health regeneration to the caster and no more than 3 pips health degeneration to the target because the hex itself doesn't stack, only its side-effect. Hex stacks are commonly used to avoid having the important hex removed, for example a curses Necro may cast Faintheartedness first, then Reaper's Mark and finally Parasitic Bond. This normally means that Parasitic Bond and Reaper's Mark have to be removed before Faintheartedness can be."

The "side-effect" would only stack if you had AP (of Life Siphon, like in the example) on multiple enemies at once. So basically, you would need to have different targets for your respective AP's to get the benefit of both.

Dmitri3 · Jan 07, 2009, 05:55 PM // 17:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by P A L P H R A M O N D

He is right, you can't have multiple copies of one hex on the same enemy. Can you have multiple versions of Mark of Pain (for example) from different players stack on an enemy, causing them all to trigger from physical damage dealt? Don't think so.

wiki

Sorry, you don't know what you're talking about either.

Test it before posting please.

P A L P H R A M O N D · Jan 07, 2009, 05:59 PM // 17:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitri3

Sorry, you don't know what you're talking about either.

Test it before posting please.

What is your proof then? Is AP unique among hexes?

And this is from the official site:

"Renewing Duration of Conditions, Enchantments, and Hexes

If you cast the same Enchantment twice on a single character, that character doesn't receive twice the benefit. Instead, the duration of that Enchantment resets. Let's look at the old standby, Healing Breeze, as an example. Say it lasts ten seconds. You cast it on yourself. You wait six seconds, so it has four seconds left before it expires. Then, you cast it on yourself again. Instead of two Healing Breezes, you now have one that has reset itself back to ten seconds. So you get a small benefit from recasting Enchantments, but in terms of saving Energy, it's better to wait until just before the Enchantment ends or until it fully expires before recasting."

So, either AP is unique, and the monster has multiple copies of the same hex icon on the side of his / her hypothetical screen and the official site is wrong (of course, not impossible) or AP behaves the way all other hexes do and the most recently cast copy takes priority and simply replaces the previous version, so-called "renewing duration" and the second caster receives the benefit from AP. The first person to cast AP would not have gotten the benefit because their hex was removed before the death of the target.

Dmitri3 · Jan 07, 2009, 06:08 PM // 18:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by P A L P H R A M O N D

What is your proof then? Is AP unique among hexes?

No. Degen, damage doesn't stack and etc. But hexes from which you gain something, energy, recharge, health regen stack and work.

Once again, I don't need proof cause you didn't even bother test it by yourself.

Spider Osiris · Jan 07, 2009, 06:11 PM // 18:11

The result will be ONE AP hex on the target, but all characters who used AP will gain the positive benefits. (:
Easy.

Edit: All though... on the wiki talk page for AP someone has said "multiple people can cast this on one target - they act as separate hexes (and can be cured one by one) "

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Talk:...in%27s_Promise

P A L P H R A M O N D · Jan 07, 2009, 06:12 PM // 18:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitri3

No. Degen, damage doesn't stack and etc. But hexes from which you gain something, energy, recharge, health regen stack and work.

Once again, I don't need proof cause you didn't even bother test it by yourself.

"Hexes" definitely work, like in the Life Siphon example, but only if you meet the requirements of the skill description, namely, "if target foe dies" or if you cast them on multiple foes.

So, if the foe uses Remove Hex or any other similar skill before the hexed foe dies, no one gets any benefit. Similarly, if the hex is removed (like enchantments) by another copy being cast (which isn't a replacement so much as a renewing of duration) then the same thing applies.